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Thursday, May 23, 2013

My review of Toll Brothers

My Toll Brothers experience

Deposit
Unlike other builders who have sales representatives who will welcome you to come in and stop by any time, Toll Brothers only sees buyers by appointment. Yes, I know, that's weird. So you can look all you want but you will not be sitting down with the sales manager and get pricing on options unless you have an appointment. One of the major things is that for most builders at the time of signing a contract you only need to pay an earnest money deposit which pretty much reserves your lot. In general it is not refundable unless your financing falls through. Well, Toll Brothers is nuts. At the time of contract buyers are required to pay a deposit totaling 5% of the base price & 20% of structural options & 20% of the lot premium. In Riverstone, Toll Brothers has a lot premium for every single lot. So when looking at the base price one really needs to add the amount for the lot premium. The amounts vary based on the size of the lot. Regardless, those funds are due at signing. They are very demanding and with them there is no negotiating. The base price is the base price and the costs of options are predetermined and not negotiable.

Choosing Options
All structural options (i.e. - optional rooms, wet bar, fireplace location, expanded showers, gas stub, pot filler, etc) must be finalized at contract signing. You also need to choose your garage door, front door and stucco color if applicable. Yes, despite the fact that the house will not be ready for 8 months, you have to finalize these things at signing. Therefore, there is no changing your mind and adding the media room - once it's done, it's done. Very annoying.

Availability
I must say that the whole 'appointment required' thing is very annoying, but now I see that it is necessary. Every time I have gone to a scheduled meeting with the sales manager, she has been in a meeting with people. And when she meets with you, she goes over a lot of things. So, it's appreciated when you are in a meeting with her but annoying if you really just want to stop by and ask a question. She does have two assistants that are very nice, but they are not very knowledgeable. I'm not being critical but they really just field questions to her.

TBI Mortgage
When you sign a contract with Toll Brothers you are required to apply for a mortgage with their mortgage company, TBI. You are not required to use TBI Mortgage, but you do have to apply for a loan with them. In the event that you are not approved by TBI Mortgage and you decide to go with another bank, Toll Brothers will build your house but if you are later denied approval, you forfeit your deposit (see above). Who wants to go through all that if you already plan on going with another lender?

Included Features
Honestly, Toll Brothers should be ashamed of themselves for not having more standard features. Since we have visited lots of models and spoken with Realtors from different builders, I must say that Toll Brothers includes the LEAST of the builders we have experience with. These are the most shocking things that are NOT included with Toll Brothers (followed by my remarks) :

  • mirrors with framing - yeah right, you get a mirror just slapped on the wall - even in the master
  • ceiling fan in the game room - you get a flush mount light fixture (okay, how much does a ceiling fan cost?)
  • hardwood flooring - only included in 1 place - the study (makes no sense)
  • High quality granite - nope, you get Level 1 granite in your expensive new house
  • High quality carpet - nah, you get Level 3 carpet which is not nice at all
  • Under mount sinks in master - not in your house, you have to upgrade to get under mount sinks in the master
  • Travertine tile entry - no way, you get Level 2 tile - it was level 1 tile prior to 2 months ago (how absurd!)
  • Covered patio in rear - Not for you, you get to walk out the backdoor and straight into the Texas sun
  • Butler's Pantry - you can have one alright, for $3500
  • Closet system - you get the standard particle board with the wooden pole
  • Built ins - if you would like to pay for them

Toll Brothers builds homes nationwide and brags about being awarded the Professional Builder of the Year Award by Professional Builder magazine. The award honors innovative home builders whose ideas and business results represents the best in home building. I'm quite sure that most builders have won some sort of award at one time or another. There are a lot of awards given out for all sorts of reasons.

Other
Toll Brothers does not include an inspection for energy efficiency as some other builders do. I have not heard one thing about Energy Star ratings or mention or the average electricity bill.  Some builders will offer you information on how energy efficient the homes are, but I guess Toll Brothers feels that they don't have to sell their homes.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I must say that the sales manager really maintains good communication. Yes, some things did slip through the cracks and cause a little confusion, but no one is perfect. I really like the weekly construction updates. I wish she was a little more available but the appointment only requirement does take up a lot of her time.

I've typed enough...that's my review!



72 comments:

  1. Your review is a partial list of the reasons we opted not to purchase a Toll Brothers product.

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  2. My wife and I searched Texas (Dallas), Arizona (Scottsdale area), and Florida (Southwest area) for our future early retirement home. While in AZ, we saw KB Homes, Lennar, Pulte, Toll, Hovanian,and 4 other developers. We found the quality and inclusions by Toll to be superior to the rest and yes there are many inclusions that may not be the highest level but some other developers include even less and you feel you have to pay for the air you breath. We also found the lots to be better sized at Toll in most cases - Pulte, Lennar, KB were 20% smaller than Toll while a few others did have 1/2 acre minimums. After seeing all we did, we decided on Toll and bought in SW Florida. Lennar - has high prices since everything is included and you have no choice while at least the others have base prices and you can customize. We have had great sales people and construction mgr to work with but we did have 10 days to settle on the construction items after signing contract but opted to do it then and there over our 3 day visit. We were frustrated when we had three days at the design center and could have used more since there was so much and afterwards we feel that we would have liked more time to think about other decorative options. Overall we preferred the overall lot/quality/inclusions of Toll than the others.

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    1. You are lucky as the horror stories are endless. Simply Google "Toll Brothers Complaints Topix" for many of them. Also, I carefully reviewed mytollexperience.com for another real perspective. Lastly, I took the time to speak with Attorney Jim Tupitza, West Chester PA who has been battling with Toll for years. All of this was enough for us to go elsewhere.

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  3. Toll brothers here in Highlands Ranch, Colorado just plain sucks. They call themselves a luxury builder but they use the same sub-contractor as richmond and Shea right down the street from me. Since we moved in october 2013 the home has been a construction zone. Every week its a new problem. On top of this every warranty claim takes months to fix. Even before we closed we went through 5 sales people and 3 project managers. So there is no communication before, during and after construction. Don't beleive me? Go to Sundial rim road and talk to homeowners. You will spend hours researching that $300 movie camera or that $3000 trip to Hawaii. It is well worth your time and money to buy a plane ticket and spend a day talking with toll home owners on sundial rim. Especially 10840, 10860.

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  4. I totally agree about choosing options. They are pain in the ass when it comes to a slightest change. it's like hitting your head to the wall. Even Million Dollar luxury homes (Still questionable to me on what basis they are luxury??) do not include any decent options, starting from granite, cabinets, standing shower (is the worse), carpet, hardwood floors to name a few. In spite of all this if you choose to buy, they have a cunning way of showing you so cheap. Still do not understand why we went with these morons.

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  5. I am looking at purchasing a home from Toll Brothers too in Austin, TX. Your blob is super helpful with making a decision on our process.

    Question: Do Toll Brothers cash your deposit when you create a contract? Or was your deposit check cashed at closing?

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    1. Hello there!

      Yes, Toll Brothers deposits checks as they are received and if you accidentally over pay (say you are accidentally charged for 4 additional outlets when you only asked for 2), you will not be issued a refund. The sum of the checks will be shown as a credit at closing.

      Feel free to ask any other questions you may have.

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  6. After reading all the reviews, I have decided to take my money and RUN!!!!! I communicated with a sales representative from Toll Brothers for two weeks and didn't get one inquiry answered!!!! There was a lack of professionalism and no experience what so ever in real estate. Thank you for assisting me in not making a mistake I would probably regret the rest of my life.

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  9. Thank you. Very informational. NE FL prospective buyer.

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  10. HOLLY WOW! TB is new to Washington State and our experience could not be any closer to the same. DO NOT sign a contract as it is designed completely in their favor. We could not make it past agreement. We sent the contract back with a few edits (same edits used in a prior contract with CamWest (TB bought out that builder)) and we were directly told via email " Toll doesn't allow changes to their paperwork - NO CHANGES!" and they sent it back. They are relentless in the pursuit to get you to sign and meet them in person to discuss changes they will not make.

    We have built 4 houses over the years and this is by far the worst experience. Everything I have says RUN, RUN, RUN!

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  11. Definitely, what an outstanding website full of informative posts, I will surely bookmark this site.
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  12. We have just returned from visiting Toll earlier this afternoon in Fort Collins, Colorado. This was our second extended visit. Otherwise, a very pleasant sales person and other support staff but we kept getting the impression that there was a lot of polished selling tactics going on throughout the visit.

    Most of the push was about lot size, location, views, reduction in lot premium if signed within two days, and whatnot. Much less about the home features, options, floor plans, warranty.

    Quite by coincidence, a total stranger at the model home walk through whispered to us to check out the Toll reviews. This person said she's from the East coast and Toll Bros have a very poor quality reputation in that part of the country and, perhaps, people in Colorado may not be so aware.

    Our search for a new home with Toll ends tonight. We'll need to figure out a different way to downsize. In the meantime, we'll continue to love our current home a wee bit more!!

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  13. I am in process of talking with Toll Brothers. I have dealt wtih two other home builders here in Texas. I must say the best service was Darling Homes. Toll Brothers also have the most complaints and horror stories. Should i even consider Toll Brothers? Or should I run?

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    1. You are so right! I have built 4 homes over the past 20 years and Darling was the best. Toll by far, has been the worst experience. I would definitely let my friends and family know not to choose Toll as their option for home building. So disappointed!!

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  16. With Toll Brother's all you get is a four walls and a roof in the base price. In other words the standard features in the house are no where near luxury. They will sell you those features as an upgrade. For example, kitchen back splash is not standard feature of the home, TB will charge you up to $5000.00 or more. The same back splash will cost you about $1000.00 if you get it done from an outside contractor. So it's a real rip off. It is also worth mentioning that any upgrades you purchase is "in lieu of standard" but how much credit you are receiving for standard. This is one way to rip you off on the upgrades. Your deposit money is also non-refundable so they will use that as a leverage to charge you more for upgrades. I am very disappointed in dealing with them and I would strongly recommend not to waste your hard earned money with this builder.

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  17. they have two community in Green level cary area. do your homework and talk to the previous owners in Cary in these two communities before going with them.

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  18. Disappointing quality, workmanship, project management and post-closing warranty claims. $800k home in Charlotte NC area

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  19. Recently we took a look at the new Toll Brother community in Apex (Green level west Rd) in west Cary NC area and our experience has also been very similar to the OP. What surprised me the most is the garbage disposer is not standard offering on a 600k+ home. This has to be the new low for so called 'Luxury home builder of America'. Of course one can argue as why I complain for a $100 item when I’m shopping for a 600k home and that’s not the point of my post.

    Makes me wonder their definition of the ‘luxury’ when their standard features list is lower than every other non-luxury home builder around.

    Wish they learn a thing or two from the auto industry and include the basics every time they raise the base price of the home for a new lot release. This price jump for every 4-5 lot release has to be the worst marketing inventions for the potential home owner.

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  20. I am in a different situation; I purchased a home in Toll community. The neighbor started construction of a sunroom mentioning it was original Toll structural option and he did not take that then. The builder would have built the sunroom differently or oriented surrounding homes differently to accommodate any structural additions. Could you let me know as per your design studio chat with Toll salespeople if they allow any structural additions after the home is handed over to the owner? Toll lot sizes are very small, Toll leaves only the easements and builds on rest of the lot. If neighbors start any structural additions in future, it will destroy the architectural harmony and puts everyone in constant unease what the neighbor might build. Also we should consider a lot which is not surrounded by neighbor if structural additions are allowed in future.

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    1. Thanks for stopping by my blog!

      Additions after construction is complete are allowed as long as they are approved by the Homeowners Association. The addition will be limited by 'easements' that limit how far structures must be from either a property line or utility lines that are buried in the ground. For example, I just so happen to be in the process of constructing a covered patio. I chose not to do it through Toll Brothers because it would have been rolled into my mortgage and, honestly, the covered patios with TB were small. Based on my survey, any permanent structure must be 7 feet away from my back fence and 5 feet away from the side fences. As long as those standards are met, and the HOA is satisfied with the plans presented, I can have it built.

      I have a neighbor directly across from me who constructed a 2 STORY POOL HOUSE THING!!! His neighbors were livid because the back of this massive structure faces his back yard!

      So, it sounds like what your neighbors are doing is within their right as property owners. In neighborhoods with tiny backyards, like mine, structural additions definitely affect your neighbors. However, the same would have been true if you had it built through the builder.

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  21. Also building with Toll in Chester County, PA. Read so many negative reviews online but made it a point to speak with about 3 current home owners in the community, who were all satisfied with their homes. There's always going to be some issues with new builders I presume but hopefully the overall experience is positive. I will update this post after settlement to see if my experience changes. One thing I would say however is, with the Toll homes, if you don't intend making upgrades on your selections, you will end up with a very basic home, no where close to luxury. Their home designs are some of the best I've seen around though.

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    1. Thanks for stopping past my blog!

      You are correct, there will ALWAYS be issues with builders. On the Nextdoor app I see people complaining about a handful of the other luxury builders in my master planned community. Bottom line is that you should buy a home you like in a neighborhood you like. Do your homework but nothing will guarantee that you won't have issues.

      Toll definitely has some very basic base homes with very little, if any, included upgrades. I am still surprised by all the upgrades people pay for. As some of the homes go on the market in my relatively new section I'm always surprised by the pictures of the interior.

      Good luck!

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  24. I've visited the Toll development site several times in the last months and never saw or spoke to a sales person, just greeters who know very little. I put my name on the list of interested parties for upcoming lots and today I got the call. they are having an event this weekend but I can't make it. I tried making an appointment with a sales person for next week but that seemed to be a bit of a problem so I told them to forget it. I don't understand why the sales people are so unreachable. I've heard many less than positive comments from several people I've talked to in the last few months. These included realtors who took their clients to the Toll office, other potential customers who I talked to at a competitors model home and who said the sales experience was weird and left them feeling unwanted. I've had the same feeling. Not sure why they keep their sales people away from the customers. I haven't had this experience with any other builders I've visited. Not sure I still want to buy one of their homes.

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  27. We bought a Toll Brothers property in Delaware and moved in quite recently. The design studio is a complete totally nightmare. I could elaborate ,but I will turn this blog post into a mini-novel. After reading ninety plus complaints, seems to be a nationwide problem. My question where can I direct my complaints on the corporate level?, I like to write a letter, talk etc... rather than just send emails on some contact online form and also perhaps get others onboard in the community because the root of most of the problems come from the DS incompetence.

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    1. Hi ,

      I would really like to know how the process was when you purchased your home from Toll Brothers. My husband and I are thinking of purchasing a home from Toll in the Marlboro Ridge community. I have read a few post concerning down payments etc.. we did have an appointment with one of the sales associates who said that all we needed to do is put down is 20k to start the building of our home. My question is once the down payment is paid are there any other fees to be paid.

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    2. Hello! My experience was that they required 20% of all customizations at the time you chose them. So 20% of structural, electrical and design center choices. It’s a lot. You definitely don’t pay the deposit then remain free until closing. It all goes towards the down payment but still!!

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    3. @Nichole Gray i'm, a bit late to the party but i was wondering if you made a decision on Toll

      Delete
  28. Great post I would like to thank you for the efforts you have made in writing this interesting and knowledgeable article. Home

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  29. They won’t negotiate on 5% of the base price? Not even meet you half way at 2.5%?!??

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  30. I am going to contract with toll brothers and do not want to pay a lawyer for contract review when i heard to are not willing to change much, can anyone provide me with statements that they were willing to accept?

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  31. The truth about evaluating and selecting luxury rental apartments in typical modern suburban communities. Sometimes too many choices can be as frustrating as too few. Builder Gold Coast

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  33. I was wondering: will TB sell you just a house plan? And then you take it, build it on your own plan w/changes you hire an architect to make? I'm pretty sure I've seen some of their houses on house plan sites...

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    1. They are VERY protective of their floorplans. Hthey would not let us have a copy until a certain point in our process.

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  38. I am under contract right now in Utah. Hope it goes well! Garbage disposal is an upgrade? Back splash is an upgrade? What am I getting for the base price-I guess standard sheetrock. We have given 42K so far and just did the electrical-outlets, light placement, infrared heaters-20K. We meet for design this week-carpet, cabinets, flooring, sinks. Wish us luck. My wife chose a 5K front door- it's a beautiful door and it will give me a workout opening and closing it. She will park in the garage along with her spare car. Hope the finished home is beautiful.

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    1. Big Dog Football - How did it go? I was going to sign a contract up in Traverse Mountain but the soil, lot, and Geneva made me think twice. I went yesterday to their open house at the design studio and I was not impressed. I hope you had a better experience. I own an Ivory home and I am thinking of building with them again in The Cove.

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  44. Poor Home Construction - Worst Customer Service

    In 8+ months (closed on 9/2019), not even a SINGLE issue is resolved successfully. In fact, they started to work on June 5, 2020 on a LONG list of pre-closing issues, and every single item on the list sustained additional damages.
    The front door lock does not work, the security panel does not work, get electricuted when turning on/off switches. These 3 items were requeted as URGENT several months ago but no actions have been taken to correct them.
    Turning on ONE switch turns on TWO lights.
    Front door had several dents and metal rusted (pre-closing), the back door painted with 2 colors on the outside.
    Tile flooring is awful (pre-closing) scratches and not leveled, they have made 3 unsuccessful attempts and and each thime it gets worst.
    The HVAC system has it's own mind, too many issues.
    Kitchen Granite Countertop has scratches/marks all over (pre-closing).
    Cooktop Granite Countertop is damaged (pre-closing)
    The Master Shower tiles had stains on almost every tiles (pre-closing), several unsuccessful attempts were made prior to closing, they promised to fix and requested to close on 9/2020, someone came in June 2021 to work on it and completely damaged all tiles.
    Shower floor has cracks everywhere but nothing has been done to fix it.
    Master Shower head is installed so high that requires a stool/ladder to reach, I am 5ft 7 inch.
    Front and back doors have daylight coming through, both are pre-closing items.
    Entire 2nd floor makes popping noise - all pre-closing.
    The Driveway is cracked all the way from one end to the other and has over 1/2 gap, they have refused to replace it.
    The front and backyard look terrible and has been like that months before closing, a Google Map would give you a great picture of Poor work.
    A portion of side walk has sunken by almost an inch (pre-closing)
    They replaced a damaged (pre-closing) garage door panel with another damaged panel, also damaged the panel next to it.
    Damaged roof shingles (pre-closing) still not repaired.

    The front elevation was changed without our knowledge, also made smaller closet.

    THE LIST IS HUGE AND I AM WILLING TO PROVIDE THE ENTIRE LIST IF ANYONE INTERESTED.

    The attached photos are part of pre-closing and still outstnading since closing on 9-19-2019, Google review has additionall photos.

    The attached photos are part of pre-closing and still outstnading since closing on 9-19-2019.

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  45. Oh my word! I was interned in building with Toll Brothers in Oregon or Washington State. This is just on time! Horrible reviews but beautiful house!

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  47. Please check out www.consumeraffairs.com, search toll brothers -Collegeville PA and consumer fraud.

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  49. Has Anyone built in St Johns Florida with Toll brothers? Thank you.

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  50. Looking to build with TB in Duval County Florida, any issues.

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  53. Oh shit! Just read these reviews and we just changed our minds about going to them for new construction. I'm also letting my friends know. They were also considering them. Hell no!!!

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  54. Run as fast as you can!!! We just closed on a new build with them and it has been a total nightmare since day one. They painted the exterior the wrong color, wrong fixtures, wrong garage door, quartz has been replaced three times, bedroom flooded the first night we were there as they forgot to hook up laundry room plumbing, all the wood floors need to be replaced because of so many defects. I could go on forever. HORRIBLE!!! RUN!

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  56. We agreed to purchase a home in October of 2019 and closed twelve months later, October 2020. To say that the building process was distressing would be an understatement.

    Toll Brothers does what it can to keep you away from the house during the building stage. They state that you cannot enter the property/home without an appointment for safety reasons. They make it extremely difficult as a Toll Brother Team member must be present and they state that they are always busy.

    We did the majority of our communication with Toll Brothers through email which have all been kept for reference. We worked directly with the Community Sales Manager, Construction Manager and Sr. Project Manager, Illinois with the majority of our negotiations and challenges. We moved to this team as during the project we had already lost (really Toll Brothers – Bowes Creek lost) the two people assigned to our build.

    We were supposed to receive weekly progress reports for our home and other then a short period (around 30 days, late March, early April) when they assign a Senior Project Manager were the updates consistent. Beyond that updates on the build were almost nonexistent and normally occurred when we contact Toll Brothers. Because of this we went to our home to document the progress and what we observed was a little disturbing. On one occasion we went to find that the first floor and finished basement had a significant amount of standing water, Toll Brothers was unaware until we contacted them by phone and blamed the problem on the window supplier….delays. Plastic covering the window openings would have been a simple and inexpensive way to protect our investment.


    During the design stage if there were elements of the home you do not want be advised Toll Brothers does not issue credits for work not performed and materials not required. When you request customs that are typical you are told it’s not available, two simple requests below that were denied and there were more occurrences like this but the list would bore you. A bit of a red flag but we just moved forward.

    As we got further into the design process we request some additional enhancements.
    • Open stair case to the basement with Oak spindle railing – couldn’t be done
    • Stamped concrete patio in the backyard – couldn’t be done

    January 24th, 2020 a meeting was put in place with our newly assigned Customer Concierge (left after 30 days). The purposed of the meeting was to review the entire building process from excavation through your warranty period, discuss your selected options, and review your plot plan. At this meeting we requested a schedule and reiterated the utilities and sump pumps for the home must be installed in the storage portion of the basement. Toll Brothers conveyed that the sumps would be placed in the closet of the bedroom, we conveyed that was unacceptable and if that was the case we did not want the home. After several heated conversations we received an email on 4/17/2020 stating that the sump would be moved to the area we directed during our initial design meeting with Project Manager.

    In April of 2020 we reported deterioration of our driveway. The aggregate was breaking away (raveling) the edges we beginning to crack and the driveway was holding water. During the meeting with the Bowes Creek Senior Project Manager he stated on separate occasions that it was cosmetic, a design flaw in the side garage design and lately that the landscaping contractor caused the damage. No contractor, not a single one used our driveway at any point. So what the Senior Project Manager indicated was that the driveway is so fragile equipment should even been driving near it.

    I could type several more pages but I believe pictures speak louder than words. You can find a more detailed review here: http://www.tollbrothersexperiences.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5

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